SUBJECT | Misinformation Laws | 11 July 2023
CHRIS O'KEEFE: He's on the line live, g’day minister — shadow minister, I should say.
DAN TEHAN: Hi, Chris; great to be with you again.
O'KEEFE: Will you vote against this misinformation bill?
TEHAN: Well, obviously, we will have a discussion within the party room and within the shadow cabinet, as we always do, about the proposed legislation. But as you've expressed, there are real concerns about this legislation and to me, the real concern is who, ultimately, would determine what is disinformation. Now, you've pointed to the Australian Communications and Media Authority as being the arbiter. Now, who is it there that will decide these things and how will they decide them? And as you've said, it just sets an awful precedent, that you will have people in an organisation determining what they think is misinformation or not. And I do have real concerns. Freedom of speech goes to the heart of who we are as a democracy, who we are as a people, as a nation, and anything which potentially takes freedom of speech away, I think, has to be done with utmost caution. And I cannot see that this has been done in this way.
O'KEEFE: Well, for argument's sake, let's look at a Spotify podcast. Joe Rogan — hugely successful, hugely popular all around the world. There's stuff there that has been criticised by governments and authorities all around the world. Would any of those podcasts be deemed misinformation or disinformation? And would Joe Rogan be censored by AFMA?
TEHAN: Well, it's a very good question and these are the sorts of questions that the Government needs to answer, because, as you know, there are podcasts like that, or then there are people who use humour, and use very dry humour, to get points across and you could define that as being misinformation, where people are using humour to get a point across. I mean, all these things are the concerns and the thing that really worries me when it comes to social media platforms it's the harm that they're doing to our children, in particular, through the algorithms they use, through the anonymous bullying that they allow — all those things are the things that we should be focusing on, concentrating on, not trying to take freedom of speech away in this nation. And I just think the government have got their priorities completely wrong when it comes to this.
O'KEEFE: The government will come back, and the Prime Minister, and the Communications Minister, Michelle Rowland, and they'll come back and say, well, it's so important that we fight misinformation and disinformation. My view yesterday was you right that by having an open mind and educating people. It's the community that combats misinformation. It ain't the government.
TEHAN: That is absolutely correct. And it is freedom of communication that allows you to deal with disinformation. That is the best recipe for dealing with disinformation — educate, communicate, and making people aware, is the best way to deal with it. Censorship doesn't work. This seems like we’re heading down the path of censorship.
O'KEEFE: And you know as well as anyone, Dan, you sat in the cabinet during the COVID pandemic, at the height of it all, right? Stuff that was factual one month, or one week, would be wrong the next week. So if you challenge something on social media in March, is that censored even though it proves to be true two weeks later?
TEHAN: Well, it's a very good question, Chris. And as you know, you know, and science has proven this right throughout history. Our knowledge changes over time. Facts change over time. Our understanding of things changes over time. And are we going to go back and rewrite history? Erase things that were that we thought were plausible at the time and now have been proven over time not to be plausible. Do we start, you know, trying to erase these things? These are all the questions that need to be answered and why I’m really uncomfortable.
O'KEEFE: But Mr. Tehan they can't really be answered, can they? Because there are a million and one examples. For argument's sake, we're having a debate about the Voice to Parliament. What is misinformation? What will ACMA deem misinformation around the no case with the voice to Parliament? Will stuff be censored there?
TEHAN: Well, as you know, with the Voice, we're talking about the future, and we're trying to work out and, with very limited facts that the government will provide us with regards to the voice, what it may or may not do, what powers it may or may not have. So in any discussion about the future, there will always be some speculation and if you've got someone there who's prepared to come out and say, well, that speculation potentially is misinformation, you start to stifle free speech in this nation, and that is dangerous.
O'KEEFE: Well, you've made a pretty compelling case, so why aren't you guys opposing it?
TEHAN: Well, we've got to meet as a shadow cabinet, meet as a party room, and make a decision. But I think you've got a fair idea where a large proportion of the party room and the shadow cabinet sits on this. But we have our processes. We've got to go through them. I respect those processes.
O’KEEFE: Have you spoken to Peter Dutton about it?
TEHAN: Look, we've had some preliminary discussions, but the way the process works is that we have a shadow cabinet minister who will take this to the cabinet and then we have the discussion about it.
O'KEEFE: I don’t think the discussion has to go very long.
TEHAN: No. You can freely surmise what view I'll be putting on the shadow cabinet when we discuss it in the coming weeks.
O’KEEFE: From what you're reading of Parliament, just before I let you go, can you see this Bill succeeding?
TEHAN: Obviously, it's going to depend on the Government, the Greens and the crossbenchers as to what position they take. But I think there will be a lot of concern with where this is heading. And I can tell you, as far as I'm concerned, I'll be putting very strong reasons to all my colleagues as to why I think this legislation goes too far and will harm the very essence of our nation, which is fundamentally built on the premise of freedom of speech.
O'KEEFE: Nobody is the arbiter of truth, let alone a government, for God's sake. Dan Tehan, appreciate your time.
